[Video] American Radical: The Trials of Norman Finkelstein in Babylon Observer Message Board Forum

[Video] American Radical: The Trials of Norman Finkelstein

Author	Comment
Babylon Observer	[Video] American Radical: The Trials of Norman Finkelstein		Lead	[-]
Active Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 1678 Apr 28 11 8:21 PM Posting official Babylon Observer articles and forwarding interesting/relevant items.	Tags : zionism, usa, israel, norman finkelstein Remove this ad
My Recent Posts
Messian Dread		#1		[-]
Active Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 1521 Apr 28 11 10:28 PM Speaking from my own perspective, not as moderator/webmaster.	Whatever one might think about this documentary, I find it hard to believe that one who watches the video willo not be able to conclude that Norman Finkelstein is a very honoust man who doesn't like to call things blue when they are obviously red
My Recent Posts
spliffington		#2		[-]
Inactive Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 75 Apr 29 11 6:44 PM	Yes, he's very honest and sincere in his misled biases...
My Recent Posts
Messian Dread		#3		[-]
Active Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 1521 Apr 30 11 9:27 PM Speaking from my own perspective, not as moderator/webmaster.	Don't know if you saw the documentary, but what one calls "biast" would be called "opinionated" by another. Especially when it comes to the matters Norman Finkelstein adresses, the word biast is used interchangeably with "oppinion" in my idea. I think that it is clear how Finkelstein is driven by at least his sense of justice and I also think he has more than the right to have his opinnion. Things that stand out is the reasoning of his mother, a holocaust survivors, who basically said that what happenned to the Jewish people in WW2 to her was a mission for Jewish people to become advocates of peace rather than war. Another thing which I very much admire in Norman Finkelstein's expressions is the fact that he basically says that people are people and should be able to live together. He does not call for the annihalation of the state of Israel, he calls for an end of the suffering and he is not afraid to say things like they are. The fact that he is jewish SHOULD not mean a thing, yet it does. That is in my opinnion caused by a biast much larger than the one Norman Finkelstein is accused of.
My Recent Posts
JAH DAWTA		#4		[-]
Active Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 834 May 1 11 9:14 AM	I saw the first part last night. I must say that I saw a man who's voice deeply cries and shout: STOP THE WAR. I back him up. Quote: "I remain faithful to the horrendous suffering of my late parents, yet, the Nazi Holocaust has long ceased to be a source of moral or historical inlightment it has become a straight out extorsion racket, a handf full of American Jews have effectively high jack the Nazi Holocaust to black mail Europe." " So everybody is talking about the new anti-semitism, instead of what is being done to the Palestinians". Source of inlightement means look dont do the same dont repeat what they did to you. If I would take what happens in the WW2 and make it smaller: A child is taken out of his=her house with his=her family, to be raped, exploited, tortured, name it all, and his=her family would be all killed in attroce ways. The child survive his family not. Then they would be a trial and the people who did that to his=her family, would be brought to court and they would be judge and executed for what they do to this child and his=her family. So far, everyone regognise that this child's sufferation is terrible which is true. Then, because of the horrible things that happen to this survivor and in the memory of his=her family, full of compassion-revenge, some would say: we will 'pay you back and compensate your lost and pain', and the compensation would be that they would decide to give him a village, where people already lives for thousand years, meaning they need to clean up the place and to chase the inhabitant of this place( including little children), to give this child , a new home. They make of the lost and pain of this child, a reason to rob steal and kill, exactly what happen to this child, they do it again. A child is a child yes? Maybe someone thinks different (?) then can you explain that to me (?) Why does the Palestinians children are seen of less value? If one support killing ( and call it justice ) it means this person decide who is more important then another. Which brings automatically to a selection: who is good and who is bad to then end up with the elimination of the bad ( sounds a bell to anyone???) and NOT justice. That is what his mother teached him. Norman Finkelstein does not back up eye for an eye.
My Recent Posts
David Pablo		#5		[-]
Posts: 1018 May 1 11 10:55 AM	Like most folks who agree to go on tv , Norm also gets PAID to speak on shows like these (as well as speaking engagements across the US and also off earns money off book sales ). Much like the preachers prophesying the return of Jesus in another thread, Norm makes a decent living for himself as a conspiracy theorist. BTW: He also DOES back up eye for an eye (in his own words): "I do believe that Hezbollah has the right to target Israeli civilians if Israel persists in targeting civilians " Source: http://www.palestinechron...cle_details.php?id=16783 At 28:15 in the video an obviously embarrassed Frankenstein claims he "never gets demonstrations" against his speeches yet the internet can be quite unforgiving source of truth: http://webcache.googleuse...mp;source=www.google.com http://www.jpost.com/Inte...l/Article.aspx?id=169296 Also in the video the "reporter" claims to have had the pleasure to meet and "interview" Norm's mother but why is it that we only hear her "voice" (and rather briefly at that)? Wouldn't a "proud mother" agree to speak on camera about her son and at length? He was denied tenure at Chicago's DePaul University which he quickly spun into a conspiracy theory in order to extract an "undisclosed settlement" (=cash money$$ ). As one who has worked over 15 years in the gambling industry I have seen all kinds and have become a pretty good judge of character. One look at this guy speakand he strikes me as someone on the take-looking out for the big score. Just my opinion but given his background , an opinion I hold on to with no apologies. There is no denying the fact that controversy sells. Edited 3 times by David Pablo May 1 11 11:16 AM.
My Recent Posts
Messian Dread		#6		[-]
Active Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 1521 May 1 11 1:48 PM Speaking from my own perspective, not as moderator/webmaster.	I don't think one should apologize over one's opinnion in this thread In fact, I welcome and applaud the expression of opinnion because there is too little talk and too much hate concerning this issue. It's a topic that for one reason or another affects us all. One very important thing for me is that I do expect on the basis of ancient prophesy and world history another world war starting in the Middle East, specifically Israel/Palestine. I am very much against war and militarism so it is obvious that I don't support ANY escalation even though I fear that it will be ongoing... You are correct that the quote you give is a version of "eye for an eye", in this case then the "eye" would be civilians in states. I do not think that anyone has the right to target civilians, so I would strongly disagree with Norman Finkelstein there. In fact, i would say that the targeting of civilians is what causes this whole situation in Israel/Palestine. I don't recall that the makers of this documentary themselves (pretended to have) interviewed Finkelstein's mother, given the fact that their death is mentioned in the video on several occasions. I think that just the voice of the mother means she was interviewed either for radio or on the telephone. On the other hand, your point is well-taken. About the demonstrations, I do not know. Maybe there is a difference in definition when it comes to demonstration... Finkelstein is not getting interviews for mainstream USA media, at least not as far as I can see. He is interviewed for RussiaToday, DemocracyNow and other outlets but these are not mainstream in my idea. However I do not think it is a mjaor issue, because a writer/lecturer is entitled to earn income from that. I've been trying to understand the concept of "tenure" which i still do not understand, but as far as I do and as far as I have researched the matter it is widely understood that Dershowitz was behind this in some way or another. It's obviously not nice to be accused of "fraud", as we also could see in the fragment of DemocracyNow showing Dershowitz immideate reaction. Controversy sells indeed, but I do not think that Finkelstein's drive is money. I do believe he is sincere and he also has a background which backs that up. Also take in mind that usually there is a certain kind of people who are customers of the gambling industry. I do believe that one can build a significant amount of knowledge by working in that industry, but it is a knowledge about people who like to gamble. Not everyone does... Like JD, i am touched by the fact that Norman Finkelstein's mother saw the sufferation of her people as a reason for her people to stand up against war, perhaps as opposed to a bitterness. "No More War" should be the reaction of everyone who has been suffering under the terror of war and genocide. In the video, Dershowitz claims that he would not oppose those who are against Zionism. He says that Norman Finkelstein goes beyond that, I cannot see how he does such a thing. Perhaps this has to do -again- with different definitions given to the concept. I do think, that over here in Europe there is a different perception of this all. Rightfully, in my idea, the comparance is made between the USA as "colonizer's nation" and the State of Israel. There will be much more symphathy in USA for the colonists, however I do take the point that these colonizers were predominantly European. Basically, Norman Finkelstein stands for a voice of Jewish people who do not like what is done by the State of Israel. This State does pretend to speak for all the Jews and that creates an anti-Semitism. Compare it with the much neccesary voice of Americans speaking out against Guantanamo Bay, where people are tortured in the name of all Americans. It is rather terrible that sometimes Americans abroad have to say they are Canadians because of the strong anti-American vibe all over the world.
My Recent Posts
JAH DAWTA		#7		[-]
Active Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 834 May 1 11 4:33 PM	I must say to you David, that I respect your opinion. I am not a pro specialist in the domaine let say, Isreali Palestinian conflict, but if I look to ' my law ' in other words, if I look to the Lord only and what He says, I cannot support any killing. I must tell you also, that I am happy here, that people here on this message boards can give their opinion, and that none of us is rejected for it, (personal experience about giving my opinion ) and that no one have to be a 'fan' of another by having the right same opinion in order to participate and be member of this forum. About Norman Finkelstein, he brings good point. I love also the way his mother raised him, cause after going trough such a trauma (concentratie kamp ) well, I find it simply crucial that someone dont become bitter. This is was a bit my opinion for now.
My Recent Posts
spliffington		#8		[-]
Inactive Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 75 May 1 11 7:21 PM	The simple truth right now is that there exists a culture of death and martyrdom in the Arab Palestinian society that glorifies dying for their cause to an unhealthy and malignant extent. It's inculcated to children in their schools, celebrated on their tv shows. Youth organizations and public buildings are named after "successful" suicide bombers and gunmen who have murdered entire families. Consider if this is the culture you wish to support and nourish, especially given their goal of wiping out the state of Israel and creating a 'judenrein' (Jew-free) Palestine in its stead. Despite the slurs of 'apartheid', no such culture exists in Israel, of which 20% of the population is Arab, with proportionate representation in the Israeli government. No doubt there were unscrupulous Jews who had no compunctions about profiting from the deaths of millions of their coreligionists (and quite possibly Finkelstein's family was taken advantage of by one of these) but their number and scope is miniscule; reparations based on losses in the Shoah (Jewish holocaust) are for the most part justified, as was the creation of the state of Israel, due to Hitler's unfortunate demonstration of the antisemitism which has been entrenched in much of Europe since before the Dark Ages. I write this as an American Jew with relatives in Israel who range in their politics from Israeli army lifers to leaders and organizers of the pro-Palestinian state activists B'tselem, so I get a pretty wide range of input from there via email, phone etc. People are welcome to their opinion on middle east politricks, but if you haven't heard of B'tselem or the good and positive deeds that the IDF does to defend the civilian population including Palestinian Arabs, it behooves you to inform yourselves.
My Recent Posts
Messian Dread		#9		[-]
Active Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 1521 May 1 11 9:59 PM Speaking from my own perspective, not as moderator/webmaster.	There's not much to which I disagree with, because I am not supporting any side in this war. I am not like some people who like to give their support to rockets and suicide bombers and what have you, just like I am not supporting the bloodshed done to the Palistinians. I am watching this thing more as an observer than as a participant. You might agree that critiqueing the State of Israel is considerably more acceptable in both Israel and Europe than it is in the USA. Surely, publications such as Ha'Aretz feature way more critique than let's say the New York Post or name any outlet. I attribute this not just to a strong Zionist Lobby like Aipac but also to what could be called a colonist culture. The culture of death and the colonist culture feed eachother. One would not exist without the other. When I observe Norman Finkelstein, I observe an honost man who is on the receiving end of state downpression because he refuses to fight and instead chooses to speak out against bloodshed. Undeniable and disproportionate bloodshed, I would like to add. This is plain to see for most people. The mere fact that people speak out against it, means that they hold Israel to a democratic standard and they should. Just like people speak out against Guantanamo Bay because the USA claims to stand for freedom and what have you. Also, the State of Israel more or less claims to be "the Jewish State", the representant of Jewish people. So things Israel does is done in the name of the Jewish people. I think that this is also a reason for Norman Finkelstein to speak out in the manner that he does. As the saying goes in the anti-war movement world wide: "not in my name". As a Christian, I believe in Jesus Christ and hold the New Testament as my constitution. It's obvious I have problems with Judaism and Islam which i both consider to be false doctrines. For me, life would be very dangerous regardless as to where I live, in Israel or Palestine, especially when i decide to obey Jesus Christ and share the Message of the Gospel. I see the situation in Israel basically as proof for my view that Judaism and Islam are indeed no religions of peace. I do fear, not hope, that there will be more and more bloodshed on both sides and I also fear (not hope) that more parties will involve themselves, culmulating to a next world war as foretold in the Book of the Apocalypse and elsewhere, also the Old Testament. I have no pretention that I am able to stop the war, but I surely must do my thing and speak out against the war. Also, I think that when conversations are no longer there, this will start wars even sooner. So it is better to talk than to fight.
My Recent Posts
spliffington		#10		[-]
Inactive Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 75 May 4 11 3:07 AM	Remove this ad For your own sake, you'd better hope Judaism is NOT, as you claim, a 'false doctrine', as it comprises half of what the Christians claim to be its own doctrine. My study of the many centuries of my coreligionists being slaughtered by yours has taught me that, despite its lip service to Jesus' preachments, judged upon its actual behavior for almost two millennia, Christianity is by no means a religion of peace. It's difficult indeed to ascertain which of the three Abrahamic religions has been responsible for more murder over the ages, but suffice it to say I see Judaism coming in a very, very distant third. Don't be fooled; the so-called 'peace advocate' Norman Finkelstein would love to see more murder in the middle east, as long as it helps to bring closer his goal, the demise of the state of Israel.
My Recent Posts
Messian Dread		#11		[-]
Active Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 1521 May 4 11 3:12 PM Speaking from my own perspective, not as moderator/webmaster.	Without going too much into a theological debate, it's obvious I consider Islam and Judaism to be false doctrines, otherwise I would adhere to the doctrines of these religions. Especially when it comes to Who Jesus is, the differences are obvious. No more, no less. I think when one takes a look at the core issues that keep the war in Israel/Palestine going, religion plays a very important role. On one hand we have what is usually called "the settlements", on the other we have hamas. What they both have in common is religion. These two groups of extremists in Islam and Judaism keep the rest as hostages. On top of that you have the "Christian Zionists", whose only rejoice in the State of Israel is the enormous suffering Jews/Israelites in Israel have to face according to prophesy. The stronger Israel gets, the faster the war, triggering the return of Jesus Christ. This kind of very dubious support for the State of Israel will do not so much good to anybody liuving in the area. When Norman Finkelstein describes himself as a "devout atheist", to me this is a message that he is prepared to look at this from a non-religious perspective. He's not fighting the other because of religious drive, such drives usually coming from obediance to an oracle of god/God. As far as I perceive it, what he is proposing is a peace in the land so that everyone can live there. I've also heard him in a lecture talking a bit about how he views concepts of "state" in general, which in my idea is very much influenced by his intelectual mentor Noam Chomsky.
My Recent Posts
David Pablo		#12		[-]
Posts: 1018 May 4 11 10:24 PM	Really not sure when Dubroom went from a place to reason to a place where the owner bashes a forum member's religion as "false doctrine". Edited 6 times by David Pablo May 5 11 6:39 AM.
My Recent Posts
OneDone		#13		[-]
Active Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 1078 May 5 11 1:07 AM	The illegal land settlements are definitely a crucial factor. He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalms 91
My Recent Posts
spliffington		#14		[-]
Inactive Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 75 May 5 11 3:22 AM	OneDone wrote: The illegal land settlements are definitely a crucial factor. Not illegal, but even if it were, it's not the primary issue, despite what Obama and the US State Dept. think.... The Palestinian culture of intransigent religious hatred, however, IS a crucial factor, demonstrated by the refusal by both Hamas and Fatah to recognize the state of Israel. Until such a time as these parties recognize that Israel as a nation is a fait accompli, there will be settlers attempting to create further 'facts on the ground'. The longer the PA waits to recognize, the further they'll be from the creation of a Palestinian state, and the more land they'll lose. No nation wants another nation on its border that refuses to acknowledge the other's existence. THIS is the main drawback to peace in the mideast.
My Recent Posts
OneDone		#15		[-]
Active Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 1078 May 5 11 4:35 AM	" Not illegal, but even if it were, it's not the primary issue " Not illegal, but if it were? Which is it? http://en.wikipedia.org/w..._and_Israeli_settlements Religion aside for the moment. The Home and land that a family has lived for sooo many generations, going as far back as what I would call ancient times. You consider not a primary issue? " No nation wants another nation on its border that refuses to acknowledge the other's existence." How can this be stated in the same breath as to acknowledge another existence, that would remove a Family by force from it's home and land? He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalms 91
My Recent Posts
Messian Dread		#16		[-]
Active Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 1521 May 5 11 3:36 PM Speaking from my own perspective, not as moderator/webmaster.	David Pablo wrote: Really not sure when Dubroom went from a place to reason to a place where the owner bashes a forum member's religion as "false doctrine". This would require a theological debate in order to fully deal with the matter but for now let's say "doctrine" is "religious opinnion" if you will. I do not think it can be required of anyone to fully accept the doctrines of another religion as "true". The word "biast" came up earlier and it is clear that we all have our opinnions here, which could be called "biast" or "false" in the case of disagreement. The word "bashing" in my opinnion is giving way too much weight to the matter because I am not imposing the doctrines of my faith on anyone, unlike certain religious extremists continually do. There is definitely a religious dimension to this matter. For me this is a matter of extremist wings in religions fighting each other on a physical level, showing their inability to discern between a religious doctrine and a political reality if you will. An interesting question in this context would be: are we able to live in the same street regardless of differences? Are we to deny our faith, our opinnions, in order to be able to live together? I happen to think we can have our faiths and live together when we simply acknowledge each other's humanity above anything else. When I see things as a false doctrine (and vice versa therefore), this is for me never a reason to take up arms or bombs and kill off others in order to impose "true doctrine". In a way, this whole issue that Finkelstein approaches and comments on has roots in religious extremism. Roots in ideas that do not discern between a religious doctrine and social behaviour, the acknowledgement of the other's humanity. This is why I find Finkelstein so relevant. Finkelstein calls himself an atheist, so he sets aside these doctrines and also I estimate that he has general views on the concept of "state" which he obviously incorporates in his views on Israel/Palestine. Being a Christian, I do not really have an axe to grind (???) here. I do not believe I have some divine order to take up arms and fight over land. In some strange way, this gives me a perspective in which I can identify with Norman Finkelstein, or at least I think I can. I look at it like, this Stae of Israel has been created by humans in order for Jews to have a place to live in. I see justice there, but I do not see justice when Palestinians in their turn get the treatment that they do. I also see that the injustice from both sides is caused by religious extremism where two groups have the idea that they have to take up arms in order for their god to prevail in his promises or whatever. For the rest, I will be most happy to participate in an exchange of doctrinal views when it comes to identifying Jesus Christ, for example. I am sure that there are those who disagree with me in looking at Jesus Christ as JAH Incarnated, who would see that view as a false doctrine from their religion. I am stirred, nor shaken, by such a thing. A thing which has been debated many times on this forum already, by the way. Just think about the Romanh Catholic doctrines discussed. But I think that this topic doesn't justify such a debate. Even though there are religious dimensions which should be discussed or at least mentioned (as i did), I doubt this is the place to talk about these differences between let's say me and someone adhering to Islam or Judaism. One Love, Give Thanks Messian Dread http://messiandread.dubroom.org PS: I choose to post under this account with my own name because I want to emphasize that I am only a participant in reasonings et cetera. In other words, it's not nice talking to a moderator and I don't want to treat others in a way I don't like to be treated myself.
My Recent Posts
Messian Dread		#17		[-]
Active Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 1521 May 6 11 12:31 AM Speaking from my own perspective, not as moderator/webmaster.	Messian Dread wrote: Being a Christian, I do not really have an axe to grind (???) here. I do not believe I have some divine order to take up arms and fight over land. In some strange way, this gives me a perspective in which I can identify with Norman Finkelstein, or at least I think I can. I look at it like, this Stae of Israel has been created by humans in order for Jews to have a place to live in. I see justice there, but I do not see justice when Palestinians in their turn get the treatment that they do. I also see that the injustice from both sides is caused by religious extremism where two groups have the idea that they have to take up arms in order for their god to prevail in his promises or whatever. Someone wrote me I shouldn't say "humans created the state for Jews to live in" because it would mean that Jews would not be humans. I consider that truly nit-picking and a distraction from the core topic, because only fools would think that Jews are not human. When one would interpretate it the way it was suggested, that tells me loads of things more about that one's inner ideas concerning humanity than it says about myself. It's obvious that the United Nations created Israel, these people who did that were both Jews and non-Jews. It's also very obvious that Jews are human even though not all humans are Jews and whosoever might think different I am sorry for that person. Some things are just too obvious.
My Recent Posts
spliffington		#18		[-]
Inactive Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 75 May 7 11 6:14 PM	Messian Dread wrote: David Pablo wrote: Really not sure when Dubroom went from a place to reason to a place where the owner bashes a forum member's religion as "false doctrine". This would require a theological debate in order to fully deal with the matter but for now let's say "doctrine" is "religious opinnion" if you will. I do not think it can be required of anyone to fully accept the doctrines of another religion as "true". Nor is it your place as a moderator of a forum to call anyone else's religion "false doctrine". That is inflammatory and "non-Christian" in the purest sense of the word. Just sayin'...you'll be chasing out the non-Christians and others whose Christianity differs from your own...
My Recent Posts
OneDone		#19		[-]
Active Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 1078 May 7 11 6:45 PM	OneDone wrote: " Not illegal, but even if it were, it's not the primary issue " Not illegal, but if it were? Which is it? http://en.wikipedia.org/w..._and_Israeli_settlements Religion aside for the moment. The Home and land that a family has lived for sooo many generations, going as far back as what I would call ancient times. You consider not a primary issue? " No nation wants another nation on its border that refuses to acknowledge the other's existence." How can this be stated in the same breath as to acknowledge another existence, that would remove a Family by force from it's home and land? Waiting for a reply still. He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalms 91
My Recent Posts
Dourado		#20		[-]
Casual Member Senior Member Affirmed Member Posts: 161 May 10 11 7:36 PM	Remove this ad Religions are often naturally incompatible, declaring each other to be false doctrines. I think it would be better to just admit it and move on. This is beside the fact that a lot of us on this board find religion to be a tool used to enslave people, and, therefore, don't take pride in religion. It doesn't offend me to have someone say that Christianity is a "false doctrine", because I know precisely what they mean... For example, in the Ziggy video, Ziggy walks down the road and he looks to his left. He sees a man with a sign that reads "repent", which the man then flips over, and on the other side it reads "join us". This man ascribes to a religion, and Ziggy just shakes his head and moves on. IMO, there's no mystery that religion has failed Ziggy on many levels... What I think is interesting about the Arab-Israel war is that, before WWI, the three "abrahamic religions" all existed side-by-side in Palestine for a very long time... we know this because when the British "invaded" Jerusalem, the British army leader was greeted by the city leaders of all three religions...
My Recent Posts

Yuku free message boards

[Video] American Radical: The Trials of Norman Finkelstein

[Video] American Radical: The Trials of Norman Finkelstein